Liliana, Susi, Marisa, Rosanna, Sonia, five friends who grew up and still are activists in the feminist movement, dialogue and discuss the theme of motherhood and non-motherhood, bringing to light their own experiences.

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ROSANNA: «I was born and raised, well, not born, but rather raised from the age of six in a bar. My parents had a bar. My mother was practically an absent mother, totally cold and distant, she only thought of work, and so on.
So, the first thing I figured out around the age of 10 or 11, was that I didn’t want to be like her. So, this was very clear to me since middle school. And I also realised I was very lonely, I had to think of myself, as the others did not have much time. Therefore, this event has meant that since I didn’t want to be like my mom, I didn’t want to be a wife and I didn’t want to be a mother. My being into this world had to go through something else. That stuff there really… So, all my moving forward, and my life has always been about researching how to exist, without going down that road. And so it was.
What substantiated and supported, made all this possible, is the fact that the so called mothers, a family, a collective or something, I found all that in the 70s, when I was 15 or 16. In those years, I found all the people who made possible my way of being in this world. But for me it was fundamental. If I hadn’t gone through those years, probably my life would have been completely different. I don’t think of the possibility to decide in total isolation outside the world, and all. I don’t believe this. I think we’re crossed by everything around us, right?
The people you meet, the people you deal with, are the persons who in part determine what your life will be. So much so that I had an abortion, when I was 20 or so, because it was not the right time especially in that specific moment, having children was not the right thing to do, because before I wanted… I wanted to find my place in this world, and I could only find it alone. I was very lonely, I had no family behind me. I had a brother who partly supported me from afar, but anyway… This doesn’t mean I don’t like to love. I mean, I adore to be love sick. Isn’t it a wonderful disease? Love sickness can be harsh, but I like a lot. I fell in love many times. That’s not the point.
The point is that even in these relationships, as I said, I didn’t see myself married. But I didn’t because I didn’t want family, because the family that I had was a totally negative experience. Based on hypocrisy, on money, only on work, no loving care. so absolutely NOT! So, no to marriage, no to the exclusive couple and all that. However, this choice has also meant that all the energies were channelled towards creating and taking care of something else. Because I think that part there… And so a life made of, I thought while walking today, if I think of my life, it is made up of many projects. One after the other.
I mean, I’ve always turned down permanent work, but why? Again, because a steady job would have prevented me, in my head, maybe it’s rubbish, whatever, to continually search a way to change this world, or how to make it a better place. How I could, in that environment, work for a change, for one thing or another. always projected on the future.
I couldn’t stay in a confined space. I work on a project, once it’s started I leave it and start another. Never an individual project, always with other people. Therefore now, having just turned 60, if I had to draw my life, there are many projects, one after the other, some started, some ongoing, others are finished, but I keep thinking about others. I mean, I can’t… It’s like a life spent looking at what I am going to do next. So, either I have a feeling of being omnipotent, or I’m very full of myself. I don’t know how to say it… It’s as if I can’t stand still.
And if you never stand still you must have light baggage, you have to travel light. You can’t have children and families. No, you must be very light.»

MARISA: «For me, feminism was the possibility to choose, and therefore freedom. For me it’s a matter of freedom. For me, having children meant not being free. Not being free, having constraints, not being able to go, travel around, change and all that. For me, essentially that. Then it’s true, your family of origin does influence you. I come from a large family, we are five children. My mother loved us in an incredible way, she sacrificed herself for us, she loved us to death, but I saw how she sacrificed her whole life. Without this freedom. For me, freedom is a fundamental matter. And for me, feminism was freedom, freedom to choose what to do with your body, your life, your hormones. For me 1968 and then feminism, and thinking about what I want to do in life, and who am I, where I’m heading to. For me it’s a matter of freedom. And for me, having children means not having freedom. Then maybe another woman who has children finds her freedom in caring for them and raising them, in seeing this wonderful thing that for me it’s not. I already have a hard time to put up with my nieces and nephews, I find them barely… mind you, beautiful, adorable, but almost unbearable. If I had had children, I might now have grandchildren. I mean, seriously? I don’t know. I think I wouldn’t have any freedom whatsoever. And for me this is freedom. That thing of struggling to find a half hour or an hour for yourself. I want the whole day for myself, not just that one hour, where I can write, think, take a walk.
No, I want the whole day for myself. I might be selfish, terrible, it doesn’t matter. I claim my right to have all day for me. And not having to carve out for me that precious hour, when children sleep. I might poison them all! So they sleep for good. No, this is too nasty, really cynical. So, yes, it’s pretty harsh, but I got to this conclusion. I’m glad I didn’t have children and I am happy of being as I am, without children. And I thank feminism that has opened many windows and many doors of freedom.»

ROSANNA: «Speaking of hormones, then I’ll shut up, promise. I had a hormone peak a few months before menopause, as if I had become another person. And I wanted a child at all costs. Like this, all of a sudden. One morning I woke up like this, I cried easily, I was tearful every time I saw a child in the streets. That’s all I could talk about. With Gabriella on the train going to Cuneo for our shows, and I was moaning about it all the time. My partner doesn’t want to. He says he would want to be a father, not a grandad, but that boat has sailed, so he can’t do it anymore. I want it. And Gabriella said, “Fix it”. Do it… I went on like this for two months, I hit menopause and it all disappeared. The hormones are the signal that in 2 or 3 months is over. And in fact, my partner at the time said to me, what was that all about? Ah, true. No, it’s all over. Change of plan. No, it’s all fine. It came and went. Quite something! I talked with my gynecologist who told me it’s quite common, it’s the body alerting you: or now or never. If you miss the boat, it’s gone. As a matter of fact, when I meet women who are feeling like this, I just tell them to be patient and you’ll see.»

SONIA: «I wanted to… try and share with Marisa… I’ll get emotional now. What have I exchanged for a piece of freedom? Because it’s true. I feel like saying that… I was thinking today in the car, about tonight. A child has huge implications. Certainly more for women than for men, from the very start. I swapped one experience of love for which I can’t find words. Himalayan. I think it’s the hardest. In the sense of charm, or also about… the things you learn, also about life skills to develop. There are things I wouldn’t have learned if I hadn’t become a mother. So, that’s the first thought.
I know that I exchanged with pieces of freedom that I don’t know how else I would have spent, because I don’t have the cost of sacrifice, I know I exchanged an experience of love that I wouldn’t barter for anything.
However, I have many other things to say, very conflicting. The theme regarding children is the first thing that I can truly call conflictual. And I did have some pretty conflictual experiences so far. Now I’m done with it, but I realised that I don’t have memory of myself, as a child or a girl, as consciously desiring children. One day at a certain point, I thought I had gastritis, on my way back from India, and I find out late that I am pregnant.
At the time, when this happened, and I was an adult, I was 30, I was not pursuing a desire. This thing happened, whether natural or not, it became reality. Even though it was totally unplanned, and not wanted either, this became interesting to me many years later, and I will tell you why. At the time, it never really crossed my mind to choose differently from what happened. Looking at this now, for me it’s quite amazing, as it didn’t even cross my mind that I could reverse the outcome of that experience. And she’s my only daughter.
What happens a few years later? I got pregnant again. I mean, I happened to get pregnant. But I felt I was too old, precisely, to take care of a child. And I decide to terminate my pregnancy. So, what is clear to me? It’s like having two women in one. One who faced… How can I say? her inability to embrace an experience, as I said, an experience of huge love. I look with wonder at women who knowingly give up doing it, because… for me it is such a renunciation, which is not worth it. There’s nothing worth giving up that experience for. Anyway, at some point in my existence, the only reason I chose it, women choose to terminate their pregnancies because there might not be a meaningful relational framework. Or for a lack of resources or other.
No, I know I made that choice because I panicked, because although it was clear to me what I was trading, since I wasn’t thirty anymore, but I was 43 or 44, I don’t remember. And I went through that very passage. The problem wasn’t being a mom at 44. I put my feet out of bed one morning, and that’s when I decided to go. I saw myself at 60 with a teenage child. And I said to myself I am not able to trade this with life. I must say that for many months I cursed the fact that there was law allowing me to do that. Because it’s been a very difficult journey, it was a very difficult pregnancy. How can I say, the process of dealing with forgiveness for that termination. Because I had no reasons, there was no external constraint, I had some important inner reasons with respect to which I believe today to have been able to activate an important forgiveness process. I know that then I have not been able, I couldn’t, I had no resources, it was too late. I mean, I did what I could. And I didn’t manage to choose once more that level of implication with someone else’s life. That’s that. In between there were two miscarriages. I conceived four children and I brought one into the world. It surprised me how I forgot and still forget about the miscarriages. While every single day I think how in my system there is a child who is not here. I think not one single day passes without thinking that it’s here, something that’s not here.
It seems to me I have crossed motherhood really… to have entered it through several doors. Then, I practiced it only once.»

LILIANA: «There is no such thing as choice in my story. There hasn’t been an exact moment when I chose not to have children. I think I found myself in different situations… which ended up with me not having kids. This strikes me a lot because… What you were saying, Rosanna, also regarding feminism, for me it is not based on choice, because it was not so much, at least for me, to be in the position to choose with respect to a project. It was more a matter of building a network around me which ensured that the stories in my life could be taken in and that I could actually live a relationship with children, with adults who were parents, who may be friends and relatives.
On top of that, being a teacher, I never missed, especially in elementary school, I never lacked this dimension of a daily relationship. Even though I realise it is something completely different from a relationship related to motherhood, but I found this reversal interesting. For me there is a “political” aspect, as an exchange of many different life models, more than regarding the dimension of the choice.
Then, there have been moments when I desired it. I think, rather, I’m pretty sure, somehow limited moments, because in my story, more than my family of origin, what has greatly impacted was this constant conflict with my mother.
I don’t know, when I was 13, I told her rather than becoming like you, I sew it up. And indeed, from that point of view, it was like that. So, I think this was indeed a part of it, of my working thoroughly to make peace with this relationship. Piecing together different aspects that had to do with sexuality and the possibility of becoming a mother. I see these two aspects as closely intertwined.
At the same time I really like, and think it is a resource, although maybe today a little different compared to previous generations, this day to day cross generational relationship. I think of my relationship mainly with some daughters of some of my friends. Also with my own nieces and nephews, well, I think I’ve been an auntie on multiple levels.»

SUSI: «What is the connection, if there is one indeed, between these elements? Motherhood and children, for example, children grow up, don’t they?
I’m not sure I can see this direct connection. The question of the body for me the body really… I need it to shape it up within this motherhood thing, but I can’t see much of it.»

LILIANA: «I don’t think sexuality has anything to do with it. For me, at least. Or has little to do with it. For me, it doesn’t. But the body does. If there is something I desired more than having a child, I think at some point I had desired to experience pregnancy. While instead what I said before about children, for me the relationship with childhood is crucial. It’s a relationship which is enlivening, opening your imagination, opening up new ways of interpreting the world. Well, without this I would find difficult to be. This has not necessarily to do with motherhood.»

SUSI: «For me for example, as for yourself, having a relationship with children, this part of the imagination, playing, is absolutely vital to me, something I strongly need in life, and that I rarely manage to have with adult women. It is truly a vital and nourishing source. But for me, it has nothing to do neither with being a mother, nor with maternal instinct. With children, I feel I am playing. Clearly, we are not equal, I’m an adult, I play that card there. And for me, being a mother has nothing to do with that.
I agree with you, sexuality has nothing to do with it either. Towards whom you channel your desire has nothing to do with it. This thing about the transformation of the body.
For example, you said you might have enjoyed experiencing pregnancy, for me it was one of the very elements that put me totally off it. I don’t even want to hear about it. I agree with you. I never chose. I didn’t choose because that option never even crossed my mind. I didn’t have it in my imagination even as a child.
This idea, as Rosanna said, to get married, become a mother, it was never there. In fact, I can’t say, although I thoroughly questioned myself after being invited by Nicoletta and Marilisa, to think about these lunàdigas, to this being lunàdiga. I wondered so much, and I said to myself, When did I decide? I never did. It never interested me. The topic really never touched me. Having affectionate relationships with children as an aunt, not blood related, but adoptive aunt. I worked a lot with children too.
This whole thing that we call motherhood, whether as the act of being in a parental role, or as the transformation of the body, this need to create. No, I feel very close to what Rosanna said, “I need to create much, possibly all that stimulates me, and as collectively as possible.”
Of course, behind it there’s everything that Rosanna said about disrupting this idea of family. I remember in the 70s, 80s, I said, children at the age of five should be able to leave the family.»

SONIA: «As in Sparta.»

SUSI: «Because families can ruin you.»

MARISA: «I want to say something on the structure of family in our society, I find this family structure unbearable. Everyone having their own children, in these closed cubicles, and they can do whatever they want with these children, for better or for worse, I find it unbearable. I think children should be raised by the community.
And not indoors, in two rooms, with two people who no one knows whether they are mentally healthy.
There should be instead a more collective system, where maybe, I’m not saying going as far as an exchange, but where everyone can have a part in raising these children.
Even those with no children or other. I imagine houses around a courtyard, and these children in the courtyard.»

ROSANNA: «This is the African model.»

MARISA: «And they are everybody’s children. I can’t stand it that they are children only of their biological parents, locked up. And these parents have a huge power over these creatures. Really huge. They can ruin their lives and no one can do anything about it. Surely, I would have behaved even worse, but I find that a more collective management of the children would be much healthier for society. Instead, I see these tall buildings, with these small apartments. I find this all terribly distressing. I don’t know.»

LILIANA: «Yes, you have to be convinced that society is better than individuals. That’s true. And in days, this is not so sure. Instead… Sorry, go ahead.»

ROSANNA: «I have lived many years in contact with women from other countries. They taught me a lot about children. At first I was a little shocked, as soon as we met it was “Say hello to your aunt”.
These women’s children. I mean, I am not an auntie. Auntie Rosanna. I have probably up to 70 nieces and nephews around town, because I am an aunt of these children of women from Africa, or from South America.
Children recognise in an adult who knows their mother immediately an uncle or an aunt. It’s not their mom’s friend. And they have power over the child. If you say something to that kid,
the child must listen to you. Because you are an adult, legitimized to talk by the relationship you have with their parent. Here in our world, it’s often the opposite,
“How dare you say anything to my child?” There, you have the right to do it. So, that also made me think to a different model, as you were saying.
In the houses in Africa, this thing, maybe also for survival reasons, it is very normal for children to go outdoor, enter a courtyard, the older watch the younger ones, older people look after everyone’s children, while others go to work or something. So, there is this control.
Something came to my mind. I spent a few years of my life in Central America. I used to go there to teach, I worked with women, with girls and boys and so on. And the first question they asked me was “Do you have children?” And I said no. “Ah! Estas enferma?” For them, I was sick.
It was unconceivable that you, a fertile woman, I was 35 or something, didn’t have children. Surely, you must be sick. Again, this thing made me so angry. I entangled myself in endless discussions with these women, trying to make them understand that you can also choose. Somehow you might not be interested in motherhood. But they would immediately turned the argument around, telling you, “What do you do about men?” Because what binds a man to you, if not giving him a child? Because the other thing they said soon after meeting a man was, “I’ll give you a child”, which is a total lie. In fact, these women have six children from six different men. Always with this attempt to keep the man from running away. It’s just a construction of an ideal prince charming, the expectation, wondering whether it’s the good one. This has only strengthened my idea, this conviction of mine, that I should have not gone through that. I didn’t want that stuff. I didn’t want my being in the world to pass through that door.
While acknowledging what Sonia says of this experience of love. Priceless, isn’t it? I get it, I can grasp it, for sure. As I feel very strong and moving emotions when I see newborns, my nieces and nephews. I can feel it’s something different from anything else. This is clear.»

SUSI: «On the emotional part, I don’t even want to talk about it. I don’t care that much. I’m a little more interested in this social aspect. Also supporting this, getting back to what you were saying at the beginning, what did the 70s movement give us? Feminism, freedom and all that. While it’s true that today we are in a certain situation. It’s not worth repeating how disgusting our living conditions are in this country and in the world. But I would like to pick up again some of the experiences we’ve made, that all the five of us have witnessed.
I wouldn’t like that within Lunàdigas this stuff would not come out. I’ll try to explain.
I’ll try to verbalise it also because I’m sure Sonia was kind of restless, although not showing, in her style, in this conversation. Because, for example, so, for African women the children belong to everyone? Yeah, true. It’s right.
In other words, how can I say? It also reminds me of my childhood. When we were kids, we played in the streets, I lived and played in the street with girls and boys. We did things that when I tell my mother she says, “Did you do that stuff?” Mom you let me do that. I was free to go out, I didn’t tell you where I was going, I was 5, 6, or 7 years old.»

SONIA: «I have a confusion between the perspective you bring out… Mind you, I agree with what Susi said. But then one… How can I say this? A specific characteristic of relationships
which cannot be changed because it is written in the structure itself, wherever you place it. I mean, the bonding structure with a child, true it can take different variations, that can be communal, social or follow geographical histories, but the structure of the bond with a child is that one. The experience of that bonding structure can only be done there. You can’t experience it anywhere else. I have nieces and nephews, too. I don’t even know if that’s a word I like so much. And I have in my mind and on my body many younger and older children of friends I love very much. But the bonding structure with your child, as the bonding structure with a mother, with a father, with a sister, or with a friend, has its own characteristics.
And probably also the bonding structure with a child 1, child, 2, child 3 has properties I don’t know about because I have only one daughter. That is to say, I think that the bond with a child belongs to an area, and I say also a bit provokingly, a child you have given birth to and then accompanied. Because chemistry is not enough. It cannot be reproduced.
I go back to what I was saying before. Giving this up is…. renouncing to explore something that cannot be explored elsewhere. Then I strongly believe it doesn’t mean there’s a piece missing. It’s not just a rational thought, I do believe very much that one must not feel a piece is missing because you don’t have a child.»

LILIANA: «The problem is with the word “giving up”.»

SUSI: «Of course there’s a problem.»

SONIA: «She said it clearly. I know that I have given up portions of my freedom, although I could not specify the content of it, today. I believe…»

LILIANA: «I don’t think I gave up motherhood. Well, of course. It is not a fact I renounced to. It’s an experience I haven’t been through, about which I recognise in what you said, how potentially powerful it may be. But I don’t think I gave up something, because giving up falls into this logic of the choice.»

SONIA: «Yeah, I totally agree.»

LILIANA: «No, I didn’t give up. As I didn’t choose, I haven’t given up.»

SONIA: «Allow me a question. Which word would you use?»

LILIANA: «No, that’s something you go through. There are several in life, quite a few indeed. You go through some experiences or they cross your path. Other experiences don’t touch you and you do not go through them. This does not depend on the choice, it doesn’t depend on a rational or political stance or other. I mean, it’s not all self defined.»

SONIA: «But there are women who say that was the case?»

LILIANA: «Yeah, yeah, yeah.»

SONIA: «I think that’s it.»

SUSI: «I ask myself, how comes, every time, even us today, four lunàdigas out of five, to talk about being lunàdigas, we need to talk about motherhood? Am I wrong, or how comes? How is it possible? It’s a bit like the story… Sorry, I have to move a bit. It’s like that story that in order to talk of being lesbian I have to talk about being straight. How comes? Am I asking myself the wrong question, Liliana?»

LILIANA: «In my opinion Susi is right, it’s probably because we are trapped within a certain language. Since it has no social, symbolic, cultural meaning, not having children is only a denial, we can talk about it by distancing ourselves, opposing it or crossing it, with regard to the content socially recognised.
As the example you made of being a lesbian as opposed to being straight. I was thinking about something while Sonia was talking, that really impressed me in my experience in school, where, the line, let’s say, between personal, individual and professional role is very flexible. I have often been consulted as a mother. I mean, I’m not a mother, but several times they called me Mom. And for me motherhood is this. I mean, it’s only someone else who can call you into a relationship. Then, obviously in that case they address a role because they recognise in you… something all mixed up: relationships, love, caring, needs, and so on. But I think, I wouldn’t know how to say it. It’s society’s interpretation. Outside of this, the maternal does not exist. There’s no such thing as natural. For me. What is the maternal outside the meanings that we give it? Honestly, I don’t know.»

ROSANNA: «I totally agree. When as a young girl I said I didn’t want to belong to that, as a mother or a wife, that stuff there.»

LILIANA: «But it’s powerful because it marked your life.»

ROSANNA: «Of course, in contrast with it I had to. That’s clear.»

MARISA: «Turn yourself into a lunàdigas.»

SONIA: «It’s not that you haven’t exercised motherhood. We have to choose words. You chose not to have a child. We have to understand each other. What a mess it is! It’s pretty messy. Here, I get confused again. Here no one is saying that she does not want to exercise the maternal in this life. On the contrary, I’ve only heard balancing between not having children and exercising the maternal elsewhere. I find it messy. Here we are not discussing on the choice to exercise or not I don’t know whether to call it a role, that stuff, someone called it caring, taking care of.
Being aunts, not aunts, that is, acting as mothers on all possible sizes and shapes, but choose not to have children.»

SUSI: «I don’t really… I didn’t get what you are saying. What does exercise mean? I don’t have maternal instinct. I have other…»

SONIA: «Yes, you always said this. Always.Yes, ever since I’ve first met you. I have the feeling, I don’t even know what to say it anymore. It seems we’re trying to differentiate between that stuff there that can come through many paths, not necessarily a child. And having a child.»

MARISA: «It’s true. It’s as if women who didn’t have children had to apologise. “I love spending time with my nieces and nephews.” “I do so many other things”…»

SONIA: «”I’m a midwife, or I take my nieces to the movies.”»

MARISA: «It’s like saying, I’m not a biological mother, but…»

LILIANA: «I am human. I really think that this kind of justification has much to do with the desire to be included as human. While I think that today there is another issue, which is somehow related with being productive. And that many of us don’t want to be productive, neither socially nor economically. So, reproduction or the stigma about non reproduction is related with this kind of framework.»

SONIA: «Reproduction as achieving something?»

LILIANA: «No, no. It’s as if your life does not produce anything measurable economically.»

MARISA: «You are a nonentity. You don’t even have children.»

LILIANA: «So much so that the whole debate…»

SUSI: «The matter is much more complex…Go on Liliana.»

LILIANA: «So much so, some in the LGBT community try to be credited as human on these grounds: having children and being parents. And as such, it is and will be included.»

SUSI: «This grants you the right of citizenship. This is a big contradiction within the movement. Well, we tend not to…»

MARISA: «There’s a liberation of one’s own desire for parenthood. There’s not only…»

SUSI: «There’s also a desire to conform. Come on, girls.»

MARISA: «But it’s also a matter of liberating the desire, which gay and lesbians have often repressed, of parenting.»

LILIANA: «But this is… No, no…Maybe… This is a legitimate desire.»

MARISA: «It is a legitimate desire. They feel freer.»

LILIANA: «But if this is the only legitimate desire, it is quite odd.»

MARISA: «Of course.»

SUSI: «Well, but it is. That’s the way it is in the social construct, Marisa. In the social construction of the recognition of desire, that’s the only one giving you right of citizenship. If you look at it not only from a social exposure point, but also from the standpoint of a legislative negotiation, that’s where we are.»

MARISA: «Yes, children are a bargaining tool.»

SUSI: «Girls, but what for? To create families? Even rainbow families, as long as they are families. Mind you, they have to be families. Come on girls, we tore down walls for stuff like that.»

LILIANA: «That’s not my stance. What I perceive strongly, speaking of the lesbian side, is that today, lesbians who are visible and accepted are lesbians who are mothers.»

MARISA: «I think in the past, there has been a repression of the desire for parenthood in lesbians and gays which was huge.»

ROSANNA: «True, I thought that too. Yes, it is true.»

SUSI: «The problem is not where it comes from, the problem is the outcome which is the normalisation. It is normalisation! I’ll try to explain myself. The request is not so much the acknowledgment of that relationship, a relationship of parenting between two women. The demand is for it to be equal to the norm, to what is recognized, established and guaranteed. The family model that the Holy Roman Church has approved. Everything is played on the mechanism of the Holy Roman Church, girls. I mean, we’re not out of there. We are still there.
That is, the extreme need to trace everything back to that archetype. I am sure that’s where it is. Going back to where we started, for me, a feminist from the 70s, I fought fiercely against that, with all of you and many others. On that stuff there, I have no intention to back off at all. If my lesbian friends and companions have lost their minds over that, I am indeed willing to discuss, always, but mind you, that’s what we are asking for. I’m not supporting that.»

MARISA: «I had this thought. Could it be that in this desire of not having children there’s also the desire to maintain a state of eternal youth? Staying in the realm of possibilities, in this place where you are not fully defined. You’re all still young and all. We have a say in Piedmont, we say, È ancora una pula e non una galina You know? She’s still a young chick and not a hen yet. A hen is a hen, she is defined. She hatches eggs and all. She spends her whole life hatching. The young chick is always young. Do you think that could be an aspect?»

ROSANNA: «I fully agree.»

MARISA: «This desire of eternal youth? I agree. Great conceit, but basically true.»

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