March 2015. In the framework of a ceramics workshop in the San Lorenzo district of Rome, five women between the ages of twenty and forty discuss their personal experiences of motherhood and non-motherhood, the conditioning that affects women’s choices in terms of procreation, abortion and maternal instinct.
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LAVINIA: «Silvia, how are you doing?»
SILVIA: «Well…It’s a very difficult time. But you know… what my situation is.»
LAVINIA: «Are you tired?»
SILVIA: «I’m a little bit tired and… there are some elements in this period that are challenging. I had a baby three months ago. I’m facing what I think are… the first moments of being a mum, which have a significant impact on the life of a woman who’s used to think about herself, independent who has always done everything. It’s a moment in which life stops. Looking around me, I see everybody else making progress, doing things, moving on and evolving, and I practically feel totally standing still.
And it’s something that I’ve never felt in my life. I don’t know if I’ll ever fully accept it. But they say it’s normal, so I take it like that. I hope I’ll get over this feeling.»
LAVINIA: «Is it something you expected?»
SILVIA: «As much as you can imagine it, I think you won’t ever fully understand that unless you experience it. Of course, these are just the negative aspects, there are the positive ones too. They exist, they are real and tangible, and they have a deep impact on our emotions. But I think that for each single woman’s life, motherhood it’s like standing still. You must deal with the fact there is someone else who decides for you. You can’t fully decide for your life anymore, at least in this phase. I don’t know how it will be in the future.»
MIRIAM: «Why do you perceive it as… I don’t understand, why you perceive it as if you’re standing still. Isn’t it a change? The fact that you have changed… »
SILVIA: «It’s definitely a passage, a transformation. The passage from being a childfree woman to a woman with children is a moment in which a transformation of your own life happens. But if I analyze who I am, I mean what my condition as a human being in this world is, I think that at this moment my condition is limited. It’s a condition in which I can’t express what I could express before. I’m not free to travel, to wake up whenever I feel. I’m not free to get a wax. I’m not free to do all the things I used to do before. And that’s a fact.
Of course, the baby is only three months old and now it’s a limiting condition from a physical point of view, but then it will become a commitment, a responsibility from other points of view. For me, it’s a reality of motherhood that we must talk about somehow, because it exists. It’s not that motherly love pops up as soon as you see your baby. It’s not true. You develop this feeling day by day, piece by piece and I’m happy about my choice. But there are days when I see the house where I used to live, I look up and I say that I’d like to go back there. Maybe I’d go back to that life. But these are just moments, seconds and instants. But I think about it sometimes.»
MIRIAM: «Did you ever imagined yourself as a mum before?»
SILVIA: «I’m not a maternal human being. It suddenly happened and I don’t even know the reasons why I made that choice. I’ve always imagined myself without kids, but that moment came, and I made that choice. I decided also because all my friends are childfree, and I’m tired of women who choose not to have children, because I think, especially among liberal women, the ones who did a deep path of self-analysis choose not to have children. I tried to find the nature of this choice just as a biological reproduction.»
SARAH: «Hi»
LAVINIA: «Silvia was telling us about this last period, about her pregnancy. Maria, you had pretty much the same experience…»
MARIA: «I understand her very well. Actually, I’ve always been a rebel. I’ve never imagined myself neither maternal, nor as a mum, but then it happened, that’s how it went. Maybe I got pregnant as a form of counter-rebellion. I did something unexpected towards who I was and who I am. It was surprising. I know why you got emotional. I can fully relate to that. It’s a big change. But it’s true, it will end. They’re not dogs, they become independent. They gradually develop skills, abilities and you get your life back. But the first year and a half, maybe the first three years are tough. That’s because you’re not alone anymore, you can’t decide for yourself anymore. You have a tiny baby who depends on you for everything and sometimes you don’t want to. And you deal with all of this alone because, even if we live in a more modern society, with emancipated partners, more… Life changes anyway…»
SARAH: «Luckily, we’re starting to talk about this, about the negative aspects of the idea of a positive, natural, maternity… Just the beauty of it. Recently, I’ve heard voices out of line, towards a situation which I don’t personally know, because I’m not a mum. But I know my mum went through a difficult time when my sister and I were born. She felt alone, maybe because it wasn’t socially accepted. She was a foreigner, didn’t speak Italian, was alone. She told us about her feelings pretty late. But it’s important that those aspects are seen as normal. »
MARIA: «But they’re not. I was at the park… and one time I told Lavinia, that you find yourself alone, because you’re alone. It’s just you and your partner, no extended family, or a community, so you’re alone. You find yourself at the park talking about poops, baby bottles and stuff like that, and you feel like… eww. As a joke, I said, I make some cynical jokes, everybody knows that. I said I wanted to kill him, and everybody was petrified. They were like: “Is she kidding?” That’s why I created a self-help group, it was four of us.»
SARAH: «You all wanted to kill him.»
MARIA: «Yeah, exactly. But yeah, we could about some darkness and not just feel-good tales. When people say: “You’re so fulfilled, you’re so beautiful. Everything’s good.” Hell no! That’s not how it is. There are indeed wonderful and intense moments, it’s a new awareness. There’s a baby… but it’s not that easy. Being a mum personally doesn’t really bring me that much joy.»
SARAH: «Not even now?»
MARIA: «I wouldn’t talk like that even for my most important relationships, why for a child then I should say how wonderful it is? It’s not just that.»
SILVIA: «I think what happens to you once you become a mum, a lot of things happen but, what strikes me the most is people asking if you breastfeed. As if everyone should know how many times I go to the bathroom or when I poop. Those are very personal questions, I wonder why they ask them.
Another thing everyone says is: “It will change your life!” Shouldn’t I be the one to evaluate what my experience is? And if you feel your life hasn’t changed you feel bad and responsible and you say: “Maybe I’m taking it the wrong way.” I think you feel a sort of responsibility towards society once you become a mum. You should become a mum following certain standards, following a certain path. I think it’s true what you were saying about your mum. Women aren’t really free to tell what their troubles are once they become mums. Especially women who haven’t always thought to have one day like 30 kids, or women who made this decision going through different phases, through the phase of “I don’t want to have a baby in this world now.” I think there’s very much a stereotypical concept of how a mum should feel and how she should be.»
MARIA: «The mysticism thinking the highest achievement of being a woman or of being feminine is believed to maternity has always bothered me and still does. I don’t think that becoming a mum made me feel more feminine. So, even on this topic, you try to avoid that because if you’re a mum you’re automatically dependable, responsible, understanding and patient, more… you’re maternal. Not at all. I’m a mess, I’ve always been… That’s the way it is. You seem to enter into a separate existential category as if this totally fulfils whatever potentials you had. Hell no!»
MIRIAM: «You think the modern mum is perceived like that?»
MARIA: «Yes»
MIRIAM: «Well, I think the myth of the perfect mum debunked. Maybe there’s still a cultural heritage, especially in Italy where mums are… They’re extremely important also because of a Catholic heritage. I think a modern mum is very dynamic, she’s able to balance the rhythm of her life and her mother role. Isn’t it so? Maybe it’s different from the past: now you raise a kid with a partner, – the father figure also changed. »
SILVIA: «Do you know where what you’re saying differs from real life? It doesn’t happen when, that’s what happened to me, when I made this decision and I got pregnant, because I felt the need to go back at least for some support, to my family of origin, because our society doesn’t allow you to live your pregnancy alone. I mean, I’m a woman, I’m alone, maybe I’ve a partner, and I raise my child. Well, this assumption doesn’t work, unless you’re rich, that might work. Otherwise, you must ask for support, in most cases, to your family of origin unless you have a very close-knit group of friends, with whom you have a community life, but this brings you back to an initial state. You moved away from your family. You built your own life, you’ve always done everything by yourself. But once you become a mum, you go back to them. There’s a double frustration in this mechanism. Modern mums are indeed very dynamic but… balancing your work and family time in Italy it’s not possible.»
MIRIAM: «Well, since I’m not a mum yet, I can talk only as a daughter. We indeed live in a country, from the welfare point of view, where we don’t have access to services provided in Northern Europe. I was born in ‘86, I’m the firstborn and mum is an independent entrepreneur. She lived in Milan and my dad in Rome. When I was born, she used to bring me to the office with her. She has these memories. Those are the things she tells us… Therefore I… She kept running her business, she worked hard, struggling a lot, having me always with her, and travelling back and forth every weekend from Rome to Milan and she always brought me with her to her showroom. She always talks about this tough experience which surely changed her. But if you bite the bullet, you might be able to juggle everything around. I know it’s not easy in Italy because we don’t receive help.»
SARAH: «There’s something that really bothers me. I’m really confused actually, because I’m not planning for a baby… But in workplaces, it honestly feels that even feminism kind of conceded to a concept of equal opportunity adopting a male model of being dynamic anyway. I don’t think it’s right to have only three months of maternity leave and having to go back to work and be a mum. If I had a child, I’d like to be a mum for as much as I want. You often hear on TV that some go back to work just a week after giving birth. I think this is a negative model, even on a physical level. It should be my right… to have my time, even for my body. I think… it’s a quite difficult topic. I don’t think here in Italy – we can overcome it yet.»
SILVIA: «It’s should be up to you, whether you want to get back to work a day, a year, or ten years after giving birth. But you must be able to make this choice. Of course, If I have a baby, I won’t put my life on pause. It wouldn’t be a healthy choice, probably for a woman to choose this. Within the possibilities a society should give, I should be able to choose. Freedom of choice must be protected, than each woman will experience motherhood however she likes, but I think this choice isn’t protected at all. It’s true that through some efforts or sacrifices, you can manage to have a baby even if you’re in difficult conditions. I agree with you on that, but I also think that many women choose not to have children because it would make their life very difficult. Let’s face it. I often go to The Netherlands. I have a lot of friends there. The average age of people who have children is lower and couples have many children. Not because there’s stability in human relationships, because we also have this kind of stability, but if you find yourself alone with your kids, you don’t end up in the streets, not even close to it. This support is fundamental to truly allow women to freely choose. Or else is just nonsense.»
MIRIAM: «It’s true. A lot of my peers, they’re 28 and they’d like to have a baby, but they don’t because they wouldn’t be financially able to raise and sustain a kid. At least two, three friends of mine would like to be mums.»
SILVIA: «I think in Italy women never chose to be a single mum, because it’s hard… But a woman who chose to have a baby might not have a partner in her life to have a family with. Why does she have to give up her wish? I think she should be able to do that, she should be able to choose. If you’re about to make this choice but then you don’t anymore because of external factors, it’s frustrating. It shouldn’t happen. I must choose for myself, for my life and for the life I bring into this world, but just in this situation, not because I live in a world that doesn’t allow me to do so, or because I have to move somewhere else to do so.»
MIRIAM: «Yeah, I agree with you.»
SILVIA: «I think there has been a significant change between generations about whether women want children or not. But maybe that’s because I’m surrounded by… I don’t think that most of my lifelong friends… made a clear, accurate, and conscious choice yet. Surely, if you reach the age of 35 or 36 and still you haven’t chosen to have kids yet, it means you’re not choosing to have them, so this probably becomes your choice. I think, from what I see around me, most of the women I know aren’t making this decision, but not just for financial reasons, but also because they have other priorities. They have a life, a career, some dreams to achieve before having time to something else. I don’t know if it’s just me… I don’t know about you…»
LAVINIA: «I don’t think it’s always about choices. In my case, I haven’t really decided not to have a kid. Life kind of turned out like this. Just like it happened to other friends. It depends on what happens in your life. Up until my thirties, whenever I saw children, I felt like they were strangers. I really didn’t understand them. Actually, they made me sad. Then I realized it was only my projection, like when a young friend of mine had two children, I have supported her, but I couldn’t really identify with her as a mum. I identified myself with the kids as to reclaim something of my own. I started to think about motherhood much later which also caused me some distress, as I started to think about it, after a relationship I had. I was with a man who had a daughter, and I started to open up to this world and feel the so-called maternal instinct. I could even start crying at the sight of a baby, because I had just split up and I was alone. Then I realized that it wasn’t the real reason, it was the pressure society puts on you, or at least on me, like saying, “Well, your friend had a child, because she graduated, she has a boyfriend, a house. She’s ready for a baby, so that’s OK. She’s good.” That’s what I thought back then. But with time, I expressed myself through work, and that’s something very personal, as I always felt the need to express myself somehow. When I built my life around myself, I realized that I got rid of this conditioning, that I’m fine in this condition. Then of course, I’m 41 now, I don’t think I’ll have children. There’s some time left, but the biological clock is ticking. But I feel like I can say I’m still not choosing and even if, as I think I won’t have them, the most important thing is to feel good live life fully. Because I know a lot of people who are obsessed about having children because they’re about to turn 40 they have a partner, so they feel they have to… Or they don’t have a partner and they get discouraged.
I often wonder if we want children just to feel accepted by society or because other people say so. Maybe that’s another way to project ourselves into the world. On the other hand, if you feel good, whether you have children or not, maybe you are trying not succeeding. It’s not a big deal. So, I wouldn’t always talk about choices…»
SILVIA: «I was saying that life probably leads you not to make that decision or to choose not to have a baby. I don’t know how to say that. Anyway, it’s pretty clear that only a few women choose not to have children. It’s like you were saying. Life often brings you not to have that experience, or not feeling like it’s your thing. But I believe that even when you start to think about this you still have doubts. As you said, you ask yourself: “Did I have a baby because I really wanted to or just because I felt like I needed new experiences?” Like, needing a new experience… do something new. I haven’t resolved this doubt yet, as far as I am concerned.»
SARAH: «Maternal instinct? I never really… I mean, recently, but rarely I have thought about it, sometime I happened to, but…»
SILVIA: «I think maternal instinct can also be related to something else. For example, I love dogs, I really like them, and I have one. I’m surrounded by some dog-lovers who truly show a maternal instinct towards them. The way you take care of the dog is very maternal. It’s no longer… For example, I’m a social worker. I have some colleagues, especially female colleagues who have a maternal instinct towards users. It can be a hug, or how they totally take care of them. That’s maternal instinct for me; the ability to take care of people. Not necessarily towards a minor, or your child. I think maternal instinct exists.»
MIRIAM: «I do feel it very strongly. I think I’ve always felt it. It’s part of my character trait, I express towards people around me. I often feel it, especially towards my partners or my friends. But I’ve never thought about … Until now, I’ve never thought how I’d feel growing up without having children. It’s something I’d like to do. I imagine myself with kids in the future. I’d like to have babies. But my fate could change. I think I have this strong instinct.»
MARIA: «It kind of scares me how you all feel the same about maternal instinct. I don’t know what you mean by that. What does it really mean? Like being inclined towards…»
SARAH: «Silvia sounds right. It’s not strictly linked to the desire of having children. It’s different for everyone.»
SILVIA: «What does it mean for you?»
MARIA: «Well, now I’m thinking about it, I generally would have said I don’t have it. That it’s a construct, a scam. Yeah, a sort of built up scam. But I honestly think I don’t. I think it’s very human, for both men and women, to enjoy taking care of people. They have empathy or a particular ability to be around other people without fearing their needs or their necessities. But I don’t see it as a peculiarity… If by maternal instinct we mean the possibility to give birth, well, of course, in that case only the female body can do that. We have an additional opportunity that the male body doesn’t have. Maternal instinct… I wouldn’t talk about instincts for human beings because they are not that strong. We’re not just instinct.»
SILVIA: «You see it as…»
MARIA: «I mean, this vocation, this innate instinct that at some point, some more than others, feels.»
SILVIA: «Think about your group of friends. Within your circle of friends there must be someone more prone to care for others…»
MARIA: «… but I wouldn’t call it maternal.»
SILVIA: «We’re not talking about a primitive, wild and primordial instinct. We’re talking about a social construct called maternal instinct, but it’s just a definition of something… I think maternal instinct is the ability to always take care of the others, to listen to them, to step aside to make room for someone else. Not everybody can do that. I can’t, for instance. I am aware of that. I don’t have this instinct, I like when I found it in others. That’s what maternal instinct is for me. I’d call it maternal to identify the figure in a family taking care of others. In a social organization, a mum is the one who takes care of the others. I believe that’s the meaning of maternal instinct.»
SARAH: «It’s interesting what you say about the ability to step aside for someone else, such as… We often talk about this topic in my family, because my aunt, who firmly chose, although she had several pregnancies and abortions, she had no wish whatsoever to get married or to have kids. She’s eccentric, interesting, educated. But she’s totally self-centred. We have always… My mum has always said, and that has always struck me: “She’s never had children, she doesn’t have a family,” as if there’s a prototype of a fulfilled woman at work, in her relationships, who travels around, but the only think she lacks is the ability to interact. For example, she’s not able to comprehend or to listen to us and sometimes it’s difficult to interact with her because she’s inflexible, which seems to be common… I don’t want to exaggerate, it’s not the same for everybody but… it can easily be found in people who didn’t necessarily had to step aside for someone.
If you have a baby who depends on you, you can’t behave like her… Maybe that’s interesting, as a typical characteristic.»
LAVINIA: «Well, I was just thinking about it. For me instinct is something physical, while for you it’s more rational. I was thinking about my job. Sometimes I feel like it’s something spontaneous. I feel satisfaction and desire, sometimes I wake up with this desire. If I’m far from my studio because I’m on holiday, I physically feel the need to create something. I think it’s… I don’t know if it’s something women experience, as there are men doing this job too, but… when I hear about maternal instinct, as something physical, I think about my job. I think of something that somehow I may have swtiched over. I don’t want to trivialise this topic. I don’t know if it’s the same thing, but that’s what I think. I often think that if I was still in that relationship and if I’d had a baby, I wouldn’t have done this job and I really would have missed it. That’s what maternal instinct is for me. I couldn’t live without this kind of expression.»
SILVIA: «That’s something I abhor. The idea that women must stop when they become mothers, stop their creativity, their job, and their life.»
LAVINIA: «I would have chosen another path, I was much younger I had another job and to be with this person and to fulfil the plan to have a baby, I would have done something else. Back then this wasn’t my job, and I chose it because being alone I kept looking. I think if had a baby now, it would be financially difficult, as we were saying before. But I would have kept doing my job. A close friend of mine, an actress, who recently had a baby, I don’t know how she keeps up both with her job and her baby. You figure out how to make things work. Clearly there is a problem, we did not talk about it much, how partners behave. Honestly behind women’s efforts, as we were saying yesterday… Men are often absent. My friends often complain about it. As much as other people see dads as very sweet and wonderful people, they aren’t really committed to parenthood.»
SILVIA: «I hate when people say: “He’s really good.” As if someone has ever told me how good I am.»
SARAH: «They take it for granted. Do you think abortion is still a taboo? I don’t. I feel like… I don’t personally know many people who had an abortion, but the friends who ended their pregnancy talk about it freely. There’s also a political context, even if there have been many protests, against conscientious objectors, doctors who are against abortion recently. So, I think it really depends on how women deal with abortion. Just as for maternal instinct, it’s something very personal that…»
MIRIAM: «What touches me the most is the reason why women choose to have an abortion. It can be for personal reasons. Maybe it’s not seen as a taboo anymore because it’s been years since… Italy was one of the last countries to legalize abortion, I think it was ‘78. I suppose the choice that leads women to have an abortion is very difficult. Not many friends of mine made this choice, but it must be very complicated, because it’s like facing your ability to bring a life into this world and to be responsible for it as we mentioned before. Something that is bound to change people.»
SILVIA: «I think the taboo isn’t related to the choice, but to the action itself. The taboo exists on a social level, it might not exist within smaller communities among friends or in families, some families, in some political contexts. But as a social perception abortion is still a taboo.
I will never forget, I don’t know if you have been to San Camillo hospital, in the ward for termination of pregnancy. The maternity ward is on the ground floor, while the ward for terminations is in the basement. You have to be there around six in the morning, and queue up, and when you’re in line you feel invisible. I’m there, but I need to be invisible. And that situation always reminds me the perception people have from the outside about this choice, which is very common. When I went to my gynecologist for an issue during my second abortion, I was desperate, I said, “That’s my second abortion. I’m a asshole.” And she said: “You’re crazy. It’s normal. Don’t worry, relax.” But even for me, who went through the terminations with no heavy feelings, back then I said: “I did it again. It happened again. How is it possible?” Even on myself although that taboo never influenced me, it affected me somehow maybe because that taboo exists. I talk about this topic freely, with friends and strangers. I didn’t really care because it was a conscious choice. I didn’t want kids and I didn’t see why I should, just because my body had decided to have one. I think that when I talk about this topic with people I don’t know, they are like… They don’t dare to say: “Why did you tell me?” But I feel they think it’s a very intimate topic, which it is of course, it’s a personal choice, but as I choose to tell you my decision other women don’t. It’s up to your perception. Does it make sense? I think the taboo is not that much related to choice, it’s related to the action. It’s related to the fact you’re choosing to end a pregnancy. I think it’s only related to the fact that we live in a society with a Catholic heritage that we must still free ourselves from. It’s hard. It’s a long journey.»
MARIA: «Not only Catholic heritage but true interference. I think abortion is seen as a crime. I think… After Pietro was born, I had two terminations: a miscarriage and an abortion. When I would talk about that, I had the same feeling that other people would prefer not to know. They would prefer I didn’t tell them and then as usual, something like… I don’t feel bad but it’s like I should feel like it, so something has been interiorized. Why should I feel bad? Towards someone whom? Maybe I didn’t bring some life into this world but maybe I did something good for myself so that’s fine. But it always feels like… I think it’s still a taboo.»
SILVIA: «I believe women judge themselves too very often. It’s just not other people’s judgement. It’s like looking at yourself in the mirror. I think that quite often women are the ones to feel tormented about this choice, even when they know that’s not the right moment to have a baby, that that was an unplanned pregnancy. Even if there are several circumstances that make you rationally think that abortion is the only option, that there are no other. You still make that choice as if it is a fight against yourself, like if you are fighting against an internal enemy.»
MARIA: «I totally agree with you. We should talk freely about this, without feeling guilty or bad. But it’s also true that nature really tricked us because if we want something we have to renounce something else. I mean, if I choose not to study Spanish, nothing happens to anyone or my body. In this situation, there is something between you and a potential alterity that puts things on a different light. It’s a different feeling. That said, I agree with you. You shouldn’t feel like, “Oh gosh, I’m killing someone,” because I’m choosing and giving life to something else. Not to this project or this potential life, but to something else. And that’s OK. But it’s also true, it’s hard to explain because you feel it strongly. You can experience it with different feelings and it’s true you’re ending something that otherwise would have grown up. But it’s something present what we experience every day, every time we make a decision. We choose something over something else. But the fact that women are the hardest judges themselves…I mean we have internalized thousands of years, and even though the last years, the last decades were significant for us, women’s freedom and emancipation. We finally had a chance to live, and choose for ourselves. But now I think we witness a kind of relapse into bigotry over this. So, to be honest, I don’t see a lighter approach due to an increased awareness, I don’t really feel like that. It’s also true that we’re part of an atypical community because we followed a certain… cultural and political path. Someone’s more influenced by some opinions and… Honestly… at work or in other situations, I don’t feel comfortable to freely express who I am. I do it anyway, but I know what other people think. I actually don’t care, but they don’t share my opinions.
After my first and last child was born, I had a miscarriage and an abortion. I talked about it freely, but when people asked, “How are you?” I would say, “Not good. I lost a baby.” I said that in both cases, after the miscarriage and after the abortion, but the perception was, “You should have kept it for yourself. It’s not something you share, I actually didn’t want to know that. You should have told me something else.” I think it’s still not a simple topic for everyone. This choice, this act is still criminalized, this freedom to choose something over something else is still widely judged. It’s not an easy topic because of external expectations, and it’s true, despite everything, despite the path women have done, feminism and what came after it like liberalisation, empowerment and more freedom to think by and for oneself. Still, I think we are relapsing into a bigoted mentality over this, because these prejudices which affected us a great deal are now coming back, and they’re finding legitimacy. I strongly feel we’re allowing them to take power over our bodies and over our lives which only a few decades ago would have been unthinkable. Even the act of giving birth itself, I’m not just talking about choosing not to have children but even choosing to have them. It’s a choice that you can live with aggressive medical approach, control and some expectations and requests which are exhausting and completely alienating. They don’t show respect nor listen to you, and they don’t give you the chance to grow up, to experience different moments and phases of your life. Everything is other-directed, so it’s really stressful. If you choose not to have a child you’re still criticized and they make you feel guilty. You’re seen as a criminal, like you’re doing something bad, extremely bad. You’re doing something bad because nature put me in this condition and unfortunately, if I want to choose for myself, I must stop something that otherwise would have grown up. That’s why I say it’s normal to suffer and we shouldn’t make this decision lightly. But I don’t understand why this decision can become a moral blackmail, a manipulation: therefore, you’re bad, you’re not a good person, you’re not maternal. You don’t sacrifice yourself for the others, but you just think about yourself, as if that was the worst thing on earth. Who else am I supposed to think about? I think about myself first. What’s wrong about that? So, I think it’s still a taboo. You still don’t feel comfortable when you make this decision. But if you do feel comfortable, you are considered shallow, you don’t know what you’re talking about, and you don’t realize how bad your act was. And deep down you’re a bitch or selfish and you just think about yourself. I really think it’s a kind of rip-off, when we’re asked to be good for other people. Let’s get it clear. One thing is individualism, narcissism, consumerism, hedonism, and everything our society creates, for both men and women. But it’s hypocritical to demand the female world to have a primordial and innate goodness towards the others on every occasion. So, when you have a baby, all these virtues emerge in you: things like willingness, sacrifice, vocation to fulfil yourself through other people.
I think that’s horrible and awful. They lead to numerous failures, because you project your feelings onto your baby, you project your frustrations and ambitions. The baby becomes an extension of yourself, you only see yourself in your baby. I think it’s really bad, it’s awful. It’s better when a woman says: “I don’t want children. Do something else.” There are a lot of mums who unknowingly act like the mean stepmother in fairy tales, maybe even unaware, but it’s a matter of seconds. You’re told you need to live just for someone and something else, for something bigger than you. I think it makes you dangerous and… it’s not fair and just. And mainly it’s not required, men are not asked to behave like that, and it’s not seen as something terrible. But if we don’t have these behaviors, it seems we’re missing something. I don’t think if a man doesn’t have these… We reward them. I mean, those who are obsessed with their job, workaholics, they just work and think about their job, but at the same time are human social, and environmental disasters they are even are rewarded, such as Marchionne, I mean, who is he? I think we should… I’m telling you, something doesn’t adds up, I’m warning you…. it doesn’t adds up.»
SARAH: «The truth is that with those negative aspects, if you try to hide them you’re making a mistake because they will come back. The other day my sister and I were talking about how much children know their parent’s feelings and what their mum’s mood is. For example, I was talking with Giulia and… Paolo now is almost one year old, and she said: “I’ve learnt not to hide when I’m frustrated, or tired or angry or when I feel negative emotions. I just deal with them because it’s not normal not to have them and if you try to hide these feelings it will lead to dysfunctional families.” Obviously, we’re talking about different kinds of problems. I think expressing these emotions it’s good for your health. At least I hope so.»
MIRIAM: «If I had to choose a group of women to take inspiration from, I’d say the ones who fought for their empowerment, like women from the ‘70s. Maybe a little bit earlier. Those women had the chance to work, to fight for their rights and to be mums at the same time, even if not always. But those are women who made their mark on history, on our history because we’re their future and we have the chance to talk about abortion and whether it is a taboo or not, so surely this and others aspects are a step forward from there. These are strong women I’d take as an example.»
MARIA: «Actually, I was thinking about it. I was thinking about some books for Pietro, and I remember the first novel I’ve read and what thrilled me. I fell in love with Jane Austen’s books, I’ve read every novel. If I think about Austen’s characters, they are women who really like to talk, with a ready answer, extraordinarily intelligent and ironic, and they’re able to laugh at themselves. They obeyed the rules in the end, they weren’t that weird, but they have some attitudes… I really like them. But then I read Jane Eyre, that was for me really shocking, because it was different. She didn’t have a family, she used to live in an orphanage. Above of all, she worked, she worked and was independent, she wasn’t the wife or the daughter of someone, then she fell in love but then she ran away, she built her own life, and then she became a teacher. Such a character… I remember she was like something new to me, and I really loved her and thinking about it, there are a lot of things that I didn’t understand back then. Maybe I didn’t know what they were, I wasn’t fully aware about them. That’s what It think. Another great influence, but he’s not a woman, I think he’s an anti-male character, a male antihero. He’s the big Lebowski, Jeff Bridges. an anti-male character, I think he’s a very funny with sandals and a bathrobe. I really identify with him, maybe I’m weird but I like him. White Russian for everyone!»
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